An era of duds?

Gary Still

Gladys, earlier this year (in March) you claimed that BC and W's victims were "duds". You assured me that you'd provide a basis of measurment to verify your claims and compare field strengths from different eras.

I reminded you twice more and you replied that it was coming and to be patient.

Well, we've been waiting for over 7 months now, Gladys. Where is it??

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If anyone is unsure about the appalling standard of Australian horses at weight for age look no further than yesterday's Mackinnon for enlightenment.

The winner ran in the Cox Plate followed by the Melbourne Cup four days ago and then came back 1200 metres in distance to flog our no hopers. Magic Wand has had 15 attempts at Group One for no wins before yesterday. She has had 13 attempts at weight for age for no wins before yesterday yet she towels these these duds. Melody Belle ran well but she is a Kiwi whilst nine year old import Hartnell in his swansong showed them all his rear end.

The Spring Carnival is just becoming a charity for overseas horses that are second or third level at best.

Where are all those supposedly good horses that were hiding from Winx?  It seems all the duds she beat are now doing their bit for the imports.

Why do you think she did not travel or take on any races like the Caulfield Cup or any races throughout the Melbourne Cup Carnival at any stage of her career?

Sorry my reply went to the wrong thread:

I had a few dollars on both Mustajeer and the winner, thanks for asking. :)

I'm only a poor old fella, Like you, I enjoy a bet  but I can't afford to splash out like some.

Tue 05 Nov - 14:59:08
  • FO
Win and Place won
VOW AND DECLARE
Melbourne Cup
Stake
w$10.00
p$10.00
Odds
w11.00
p3.50
Return$145.00

Well done. Like you, I also got on and cheered him home. I thought that the other "sort of" Aussie horse (Surprise Baby) was desperately unlucky, Both fabulous runs and had it not been for Frankie another light weight pom would have won.

These Aussie bred horses are DUDs huh! Better luck next year when the Melbourne Cup field is made up of 23 Frankel's and perhaps a Canny Lad colt?

I always thought that Declaration of War was from the USA.

If you thought it had such a great chance BEFORE the race, why did you tip two different overseas horses to win?

Great work Gladys. 

I could not post to this forum for some time up until today. My three word post this morning has proved either;

A.I had the ban lifted (maybe the mods decided they needed the numbers to sustain the forum) or

B. There was some other problem in posting to the new forum. 

Either way, providing there are no similar issues going forward, I  am back and I will be around to highlight the lack of quality Aussie horses and of course state the facts on many other matters as I have in the past. There will be a lot to look forward to in the coming weeks.

 

 

 

Great to have you back Khap. Have a read through some of the posts, especially the one containing Gary's apology to you. Quite gracious of him I thought.

isnt it fabulous to see these nine year old horses with crook feet flogging the duds Winx used to beat.

 

Just how embarrassing was that arrival in the open car by the jockey and his wife and the former connections of the :world;s greatest horse" yesterday. I think it is well and truly time to let go of that memory of hopeless duds being beaten by an above average horse. If they want to live in the past, then perhaps connections of Folkswood should have pulled up in a car behind them just to remind the crowd of the horses she beat.

Another good idea would be to turn "that dress" in to jackets. Imagine how dashing our Gary would look when he fronts up to the Valley, a grief counsellor on each arm, whilst he sobs away during the pre race build up by Bruce.

Just how good are those Japanese connections and their wonderful horses. They are not frightened to travel to take on a race and show the world their mighty horses.

Meanwhile, back at Coward's Castle, for the few that hadn't realised, watch a rerun of the Cox Plate if you wish to know the reason why Winx never travelled.

Wowee, here's a good ol' stoush! I conclude from this short dialogue that Gladys is a middle-aged bloke or sheila with a fancy pseudonym, maybe a failed punter or jockey with a massive chip on his/her shoulder.

I'm no Winx cheerleader, but I'm with Gary here.

Gladys, stop living in the past, your arguments are puerile, surely you're a pom or something worse?

Cheers

You are wrong on all counts regarding my background or status Jimmatty. I enjoy racing and have done for years. What I don't enjoy is our champions of the past having their stellar careers criticised to promote another horse as the greatest ever.

Now poor Gary has been unable to help me out so perhaps you can assist. Tell me, who are the best weight for age horses that Winx beat. Now that Winx has retired, Who is our current best wfa horse over middle distances?

Those no hopers that Winx used to beat are now getting flogged by a nine year old with crook feet. What does that tell you?

Apologies for getting you wrong Gladys, and I take back that word- puerile. I take it you're referring to Happy Clapper there, and he did run to 129 timeform last year so I would say he is fairly decent opposition.

Other than that, there is a lack of depth and it's unfortunate that we're in an era when horses such as The Autumn sun are retired so early for their stud value.

I'll still regard Winx as a champion in any era, but most certainly would not stretch it out to "greatest ever". It would have been interesting had she come up against the likes of So You Think, Octagonal, Sunline etc. I'll leave the rest to you & Gary


No Jimmatty I was referring to the other nine year old with crook feet that is beating the other load of duds down south, BHB.

Gary and his cronies love to bang on about "all the good horses" that were hiding from Winx. She has now retired but no one seems to know who these so called 
good horses" are or were. If they were hidden then they did a good job, no one can either find them or even remember their names.

I agree with your view that she would have been good in any era but not a champion. Too many good horses around up until about fifteen years ago, when only the very best could string multiple wins together. The duds she beat would have been lapped by the stars of yesterday.

I've been thinking and doing a bit of research, and my original comment was un-called for.. I was a bit out of sorts that night. Anyway, from an objective viewpoint I think timeform ratings are informative to this argument. I don't think I've heard anyone refer to Winx as the "greatest ever" and if they did they would be delusional. When you look at the ratings from the last few years, the best that she has defeated are Happy Clapper and Benbatl- both rated 129, although she only beat Benbatl once- in the Cox plate, and she did not run in the Doncaster in which HC posted his peak rating. Benbatl's first-up victory at Newmarket (forget the bog-track run at Ascot) has convinced me of the form despite the fact that there are some who still knock the horse for not winning a G1 in Europe. The 129 rating puts those two on par with the likes of Dundeel, Dulcify, Northerly, Sunline and Makybe Diva. Winx herself sits in equal 13th place with Galilee and marginally ahead of SYT, Might and Power and Gunsynd. I think this is a fair reflection of her status among the greats of the past. It would have been nice to see Winx take on better opposition on a regular basis, she may have risen to an even higher level, but the breeding industry has put paid to that idea. It's fairly obvious to see that the Euro imports are far superior to most Aus/NZ bred gallopers at 1600m

*plus

I think you may well have put Gary and his disciples in Team Dunderhead in to therapy, Jim.

 

Self-correction- Benbatl won G1's in Germany and Dubai. I meant to say the UK where he has won at G2 and G3 level and now has an official rating of 126

I typed "Gary Still" in author box and "Humidor" in Keyword box. It took one second for the incredible R&S search facility to generate 6 posts.

None of them make mention of the Melbourne Cup. Why would somebody LIE, when the proof is at everyone's fingertips.

 

Do the search yourself Gary. You even answered that post twelve months ago.

You seem to like calling people liars when you get found out, don't you.

1. Your comment about Humidor is a blatant LIE.

2. Your scenario to pit two champions against each other with one bungling the start at its least preferred journey, and the other a front runner at its best journey, is preposterous.

 

Which particular horse did she beat that makes you confident she could overcome the scenario I proposed Gary?

As to your request for information regarding your assessment of Humidor, that was supplied to you over twelve months ago, and you know it.

Good horse, best of her era, beat nuthin'.

"What do you think would have happened if it was Manikato out in front when Winx bungled the start?"

A distance of 1400m is anything but ideal for Winx, She won at those distances on class alone. You now try to denigarate Winx by placing her at 1400m and having her bungle the start against a tearaway champion in Manikato. Why not stick another 10kg in her saddle bag for good measure?

She overcame impossible odds many times. Even the ridiculous scenario you propose would probably not be beyond her.

 

 
 

Instead of worrying about people doing searches for you Gary why don't you comment on the history of Manikato. You wanted an example and I gave you one.

What do you think the horses that Manikato beat would have done to those no hopers that Winx beat? What do you think would have happened if it  was Manikato out in front when Winx bungled the start.? Up to a mile he would have run her into the ground. More than a mile, Vo Rogue and Might and Power would have done likewise.

Good horse, best of her era, beat nuthin'.

"I just could not be bothered Gary. I simply can't be bothered as no matter what I say you will want to have the last word"

Key in Humidor and Gary Still, It takes 5 seconds. Not too much bother for you to defend your allegation that I tipped Humidor for 2017 Melbourne Cup.

I just could not be bothered Gary. I simply can't be bothered as no matter what I say you will want to have the last word.

I know how you marvel at Winx rounding up no hopers. I used to love going to the trots as a child before they had mobile starts in every race. The duds used to start off the front line and then there was a staggered start going back up to 100 metres for the better horses. I remember Alacani and Bay Foyle giving these no hopers 100 metres and then rounding them up. I had forgotten all about that until Winx won that race and it all came back. Funny thing is, if they had all started on even terms these horses would not have won by 100 metres but give them a dud or two to catch and they have no troubles. Chautaucha and Belle du Jour spring to mind.

Good horse, best of her era, beat nuthin'.

 

Hi Guys, still whinging i see? Shame on you.

Here are horses for the weekend for the sore losers to back. Demerara, (Hartnell), Krone, Bella Martini, Sandbar (Pierata, Sunlight), Samadoubt, Emperors Way.

Good luck and stop the in house fighting; that is why I left because some bastards had a negative look about everything.

Be positive and good luck. Cheers Kizzy.

Current Unitab market on Hartnell CC into Kings Will Dream MC=$985 for $1. Minimum bet $5.

 

              

"Tell me, will you be rating Humidor on top for this years Melbourne Cup like you did in 2017?"

Well Gladys, you failed to name which "champions" could have chased down Red Excitement and Foxplay; you failled to prove objectively that the standard of opposition in the current era has slipped and now you claim I made a statement about Humidor to win the 2017 Melbourne Cup. You now have three chances to make yourself a hero.

The search function has improved 500%, so go for it. Just key in Humidor, the author and make the date range around November 2017.  

 

You asked for my opinion and I gave it to you Gary. If you think I have no idea then I could not care less.

You continually ask posters for their views just to give you a platform to criticise them and big note yourself.

Go and bore someone else with your self promotion and inflated ego. Oh hang on, there is no one else. Everyone has had enough of you and left this forum. Maybe the Parrot will come back so you someone to suck up to you.

Tell me, will you be rating Humidor on top for this years Melbourne Cup like you did in 2017?

 

You mentioned three horses that Winx beat.

  1. Invictus Prince.  Winx first up at 1400m.
  2. Foxplay.             Winx first up at 1400m – missed start by 4-5 lengths. Flattened to win.
  3. Red Excitement. Winx 2nd up at 1600m - after being flattened previous start

Winx is at its most vulnerable first up, yet you gutlessly use these performances to find merit in your twisted views. Name which horses from your “champions” list that could have bungled the start by 4 lengths at 1400m, trailed by 7 lengths at the 350m mark and still won. 

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dV1dzAqvLDg

The worst thing you can do to a horse is flatten it first up. Yet, she backed up a fortnight later, still suffering the effects of its hard first up run, bereft of its usual zest and having to concede Red Excitement about 7 lengths at the 300m  mark. Name which horses from your “champions” list that could have eaten up the ground, hands and heels, as Winx did.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngfQsPzltH0

She overcame incredible adversity in those two runs, yet you cite these runs as proof she is NOT a champion? You simply have no idea.

 

You said you'd provide a basis of measurment to verify your claims and compare field strengths from different eras. I expected an objective basis of measurement. Where is it?

And why have you abandoned Sunline, Northerly, Lonhro and are now going back FORTY years?

And where are the internationals amongst that group?

I don't get it.

 

Lovely to hear from you Gary. I apologise for the delay but I was conscious of the fact that as Winx had now retired you would be in a state of mourning and more than likely, the recipient of some extensive grief counselling. I imagine there would be a massive void in your weekends now that there is no watching Winx beat up stable mates, aged handicappers and the rest of the total duds that made up her competition. Like BC before her, Winx had the benefit of Regumate and we all know how important that is. Look at BC when she wasn't able to use it in the UK. She barely fell in against a horse that never won over the distance before.

I will grant one thing to BC. Although she beat no hopers she did manage to beat Hay List, who although was not a champion, was at least reasonable.

Now as for champions, look no further than the great Manikato. After winning the double in his two year old year he beat the following good horses throughout his long career. Just look at the horses he beat;

Turf Ruler, Karaman, The Judge, Lipman, Grey Sapphire, Hauberk, Always Welcome, Family of Man,Gypsy Kingdom ,Lefroy, Leonotis, Belmura Lad, Double Century, Bernard, Steel Blade, Qubeau, Hyperno, Lawman, Galleon, Rancher, Sovereign Red, Opera Prince,Razor Sharp, Ideal Planet, Torbek,Prince Ruling,Ming Dynasty, Yer Tiz,Ubetido, Silver Bounty, Watney, Ducatoon, Pure of Heart and Roms Stilletto just to name a few.

Lesser horses he beat included; 

Adlantic Flyer, Binbinga,Black Opaque, Bold Jet, Creppelox, Full On Aces, Imposing, Jewel Flight, Joyita, Just A Steal, Lloyd Boy, Love A Show, Marceau, My Axeman, Oenjay Star, Scamanda, Silver Wraith, Stormy Rex, Think Big and Waitangarua.

Manikato had a perfect ten out of ten first up victories over his magnificent career.  He won 22 races currently listed as Group One Races. At aged seven, he had 11 starts for 5 wins, 2 seconds and 3 thirds. His least successful year was aged five when he won three races currently classed as Group Ones. It should be noted he only had three starts as a five year old.

All this was achieved although he had a heart attack, a bleeding and countless tendon issues.

Now Gary, that is what a champion is. He didn't take on no hoping stablemates, he didn't sit out the back whilst his stablemates formed a guard of honour at a jog trot, he carried weight, set a weight carrying record as a three year old. He just went straight to the front, gave nothing a chance and ran his opposition into the ground. He stretched out to 2000 metres and except for a horse called Dulcify would have won that race too. 

Read through the names of the horses he beat Gary and then have a look at names like Invictus Prince, Red Excitement, Fox Wedge.

Tell me that era was no good Gary. Tell me the present era is top shelf, where a nine year old with crook feet is the heir apparent.

I can't wait for your reply.

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