An era of duds?

Gary Still

Gladys, earlier this year (in March) you claimed that BC and W's victims were "duds". You assured me that you'd provide a basis of measurment to verify your claims and compare field strengths from different eras.

I reminded you twice more and you replied that it was coming and to be patient.

Well, we've been waiting for over 7 months now, Gladys. Where is it??

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Click "Add Comment" instead of "Add Reply" unless of course, you want to add to the confusion.
 

What?? For once it wasn't you??

Gladys, you said:

"Thank you for ridiculous post about your new bestie, King. I don't quite understand how 26th December is Christmas night and I dont really understand what prompted you to send posts to me on Christmas Eve. In fact, as I am not a psychiatrist I don't understand anything about you at all. Have they let you back on that other forum as yet? Obviously not as otherwise you wouldn't be making such a galah of yourself on this one"

FFS, why do you have such an unhealthy obsession with WHEN people post?

Have a look who raised the topic, Einstein. 

It was your new best mate!

Sorry Gladys but it would appear that your Freudian Slip is showing.

Sigmund would say that this is a classic case of parapraxis that occurs due to the interference of an unconscious subdued & unsatisfied wish.

Like in you case Gladys what you are really subconsciously saying is:

Gees; I wish I could have a friend like Gary or any friend for that matter then perhaps I would not be such a poor lonely sod who has nothing better to do on CHRISTMAS NIGHT than post inane subconscious thoughts regarding my lack of friends.

Thanks for the belly laughs Gladys, keep up the good work, you really do continue to provide me with a constant source of amusement.

I wait with bated breath for your next INEPT post.

Happy New Year loser!

 

Thank you for ridiculous post about your new bestie, King.

I don't quite understand how 26th December is Christmas night and I dont really understand what prompted you to send posts to me on Christmas Eve.

In fact, as I am not a psychiatrist I don't understand anything about you at all.

Have they let you back on that other forum as yet? Obviously not as otherwise you wouldn't be making such a galah of yourself on this one.

It looks like you have become gary's new bestie now that The Parrot has deserted him King.

I suppose you gave each other photos of Humidor for Christmas.

Hi Gladys,

Ho, ho, ho, thank you for giving your KING a great big belly laugh upon reading your latest nonsensical post about:

"What a horse that Lys Gracieux is."

You say "this is taking on competition."

Competition????

I, along with more than half of Australia and probably 90% of the Japanese punters backed Lys Gracieux to win this years Cox Plate simply because it had nothing to beat.

The only things that surprised me however was tone he good price and two the unexpected IMO narrow winning margin.

But as for your:

"What a horse that Lys Gracieux is."

Again I say ho, ho, ho with a great big belly laugh to this comment.

Lets take a look at the FACTS of the form lines leading into Lys' latest win.

Lys beat a 3 yo colt by the name of Castelvecchio who carried WFA of 49.5 kg by only 1.5 lengths.

Can this be considered as a great win?

PROBABLY NOT as if you analyse Castelvecchio's form leading into this Cox plate we find that he ran second in the 3 yo Champion stakes where he was beaten 1.0 length by the FAILED VRC Derby aspirant Shadow Hero.

Shadow Hero was beaten 10.1 lengths in the 2,500 m VRC Derby against other 3 year olds.

Prior to his 1.0 length drubbing in the Champion Stakes by the pathetic VRC Derby aspirant Shadow Hero Catelvecchio was beaten 4.1 len by Bivouac in the Golden Rose.

Can these pathetic form lines for Lys prior to its latest win possibly support a statement such as:

"What a horse that Lys Gracieux is."

All I can say is that if Lys can belt this field up the way he did then it cant say much for the class of the opposition can it?

OR

Come on Gladys maybe you could give me another great big ho, ho, ho, belly laugh by suggesting tthat both Castelvvechio and the dismal Shadow Hero would have held their own against field?

Here's a Christmas Question for you to ponder Gladys.

If Highland Reel and Castlevecchio were to have hypothetically been able to have been in the field of Lys' latest race at their next start immediately following their respective Cox Plate placings what price do you think that the bookies would have put up for each based on there previous records?

And what price would they have put up for the dismal FAILED VRC Derby aspirant Shadow Hero after his pathetic attempt at 2,500 against only other 3 year olds if he also could have been in this field?

Gladys,

You continue to say:

That Highland Reel was a 3 yo colt when he took on Winx.

I say that he was a Northern hemishere 3 yo colt who was chronologically approx. 3 years & 8 months old hence he carried 56kg as opposed to Castlevecchio a Southern hemisphere 3 yo colt who under the WFA scale only had to carry 49.5 kg against Lys.

Ho, ho, ho, thanks for all the great big belly laughs that you provide me with during the year Gladys and in particular for your last couple of posts as they have seen your jolly old KING laughing and wobbling like a big bowl of jelly at your nonsensical posts.

Please keep your DAFT posts coming.

Keep up the good work Gladys, I thank you as you really are a constant source of amusement for me.

My only wish is that you don't get a bwa!n for Christmas that would spoil everything.

Merry Xmas pudin head.

PS

Thank you for your kind words Gary!

 

  Add Reply

Merry Xmas to you too, King, Love your work. Unfortunately, I think Gladys is mostly too overwhelmed by your posts to be able to respond.

A merry Xmas to Rex, Tod, Dhaulagirl, Gladys, Khapper and the R & S community, past and present.

King, i've been waiting for the answers for so long; I can't even remember the question!

 

What a horse that Lys Gracieux is. Owners brave enough to travel, horse capable of mighty deeds and no need for stablemates to ride shotgun.

If any of you still wonder why Winx didn't travel then just watch this race a few times. This is not beating up Invictus Prince and Red Excitement, this is taking on competition.

Name one race where Winx took on this standard of competition. Oh yes, Highland Reel when he was three and on his World tour and a good sprinter having a go at 1500 metres for his first and only time.

Is that it Gladys, is that all you've got?

Its obvious that you like Highland Reel or Chautauqua being outclassed by WINX that you in a similar fashion have now been outclassed by the SUPERIOR INTELLECT of your KING.

I suggest that the best form of redemption for you would to be to get up off the floor and stop grovelling to your KING, your apology is humbly accepted.

I suggest that you should simply get up off the floor, do a little curtsy to your KING before you toddle off to keep company with the rest of the scullery maids.

While your cleaning those dirty old pots perhaps you could put your addl3d bra!n into low range and contemplate the answer that both Gary & the rest of us on here have been waiting for for over NINE months now.

Forget the retorts of endless j!bber Gladys, this only serves to make you look like a bigger nong than you actually are.

Gladys, all you have to do is answer Gary's inquiries.

Why is this so hard for you to do?

Come on Gladys, give us an answer as I am sure we could all do with a bit of light hearted LEVITY leading up to the KING'S Xmas celebrations and feast.

Although unfortunately for me having drubbed you into submission I feel that I have had my Xmas presents come early this year.

Hey puddin head, enjoy your humble pie Xmas pud.

Put up or shut up boofy!

PS

Merry Xmas Gary, I wonder if you will get your answer from Gladys within 12 months.

Some how I doubt it as it would appear that she unfortunately is incapable of putting logical thought patterns down in writing in recent times.

I suppose we should all actually feel sorry for her given that its nearly Xmas, on second thoughts naa, bu66er her she made her flea bitten bed let her lie in it.

Has your therapist gone away for the Xmas break King? Is there no one else in your life to bore?

Gladys,

You are on record as having said:

"Horses of yesteryear did not string massive sequences together because they did not race in a bubble, they took on competition and raced at times in unsuitable races."

AND

"The issue, King my friend, is that we all know how our great horses of yesteryear performed against other great horses of yesteryear because they competed against each other and other quality horses."

Now lets look at the criteria you have set.

1. Chautauqua is obviously a GREAT quality horse of the past.

2. He performed against other GREAT quality horses of the past.

3. He was beaten in some suitable races by GREAT quality horses of the past.

4. He was also beaten by a GREAT quality horse in unsuitable races as in your opinion (1500m) was unsuitable.

5. This GREAT quality horse of the past was beaten in an unsuitable race in your opinion by a horse who can now only be described by your own definition, criteria set & admission as a GREAT quality horse of the past in WINX.

6. Yes, that's right D0p3y you have shot yourself in the foot.

As by your own definition & criteria set you are now declaring one thing & that is that you have now admitted that that WINX is a Great quality horse of the past.

Check mate b00fy.

Your apology will be gracefully accepted!

 

 

Go and bore someone else please King. Gary revels in all that tripe you post so send it to him.                                                           

Tell me, how many races did Chautauqua compete in and win over 1500 metres. The fact that the Hawkes entered him in that race gave a fair indication of what they thought of the standard of the competition.

Who were the good horses that she beat? Answer, no one.

Highland reel was CHRONOLOGICALLY approx. three & 8 months old when they met.

Winx at the same time was CHRONOLOGICALLY approx. only 5 months older.

For this reason at WFA he carried 56kg (far more than our 3 yo colts at WFA) and WINX carried only 55.5kg as per the WFA scale.

As Highland Reel was a Northern hemisphere 3 yo at the time he under the WFA scale had to carry 0.5kg more than WINX.

You say:  "Highland Reel was a three year old on the way up when they met."

I say by Southern Hemisphere standards he was very nearly a 4yo and already on the up bringing with him the following form prior to meeting WINX.

Prior to his Cox Plate meeting with WINX, Highland Reel had had 9 starts for 4 wins and 2 seconds including 2/G1 wins, 1/G3 win and a second in a G1. 

Yes his connections were brave enough to travel this horse and take on DECENT competition like WINX albeit a futile exercise as he was simply outclassed.by a far superior horse.

The eality is that WINX stayed at home as there was more prize money to be won at WFA in Australia.

Only a b00f head would advocate travelling to the other side of the world to race in less WFA races (because of travel & quarantine constraints) for less prize money than she could win at home.

Further to this b00fy is the FACT that many of our very, very good horses have been struck down by illnesses or even the long lasting effects of travel sickness when travelling. eg. Atlantic Jewel

You asked:

"Tell me, which horse at the peak of their powers raced against her? 

I am sure there were plenty of horses that raced against WINX at the peak of their powers.

You said: "Horses of yesteryear did not string massive sequences together because they did not race in a bubble, they took on competition and raced at times in unsuitable races."

"raced in unsuitable races" ????????????

Hey b00fy , only a d0pe would advocate racing a horse, any horse in an unsuitable race unless of course it was for fitness reasons as part of a long or even short range plan in targeting a particular future race.

You said: "Winx took on and beat, wait for it, duds,no hopers and stable mates.'

I hardly think that you could rightfully call Chautauqua a dud, no hoper or stablemate.

You said:

"Who was the best horse she beat. Is Highland Reel as a three year old the only one you can up with. First Seal, Gust of Wind and Fenway towelled Winx when she was three. Is she the only one allowed to improve under your inverted logic."

I say that apparently you are unaware that all horses are individuals and in FACT mature and or improve at different times during their racing careers.

One would have thought that you would already be aware that some horses are late to mature and some mature earlier and in FACT also maturing patterns of everything in between in some cases but you for some reason want to LUMP ALL HORSES INTO HAVING THE SAME MATURITY PATTERNS.

Gladys the more you say the more that we all on here collectively realise that you are in fact what is known as a RACING ROOKIE!

Highland reel was a three year old on the way up when they met. He then went on to win a number of group races, we all know that.

His connections were brave enough to travel this horse and take on decent competition. Winx stayed at home and beat up duds,no hopers and stalemates.

Tell me, which horse at the peak of their powers raced against her? Answer, no one. Just duds, no hopers and stablemates.

Horses of yesteryear did not string massive sequences together because they did not race in a bubble, they took on competition and raced at times in unsuitable races.

Winx took on and beat, wait for it, duds,no hopers and stable mates.

Who was the best horse she beat. Is Highland Reel as a three year old the only one you can up with. First Seal, Gust of Wind and Fenway towelled Winx when she was three. Is she the only one allowed to improve under your inverted logic.

No the issue, Gladys my friend, is that YES we all know how our great horses of yesteryear performed against other great horses of yesteryear because they competed against each other and other supposed quality horses.

But the reality is that very few of these supposed GREAT horses of yesteryear actually dominated the other great horses of the time for four years straight.

Sorry Gladys but it is a FACT that many of these supposed GREAT horses took turns at beating each other from time to time.

So just because they beat up on each other in taking turns to win, does that make them GREAT horses?

How many of these supposed GREAT horses dominated a quality international horse like Highland Reel winner of six Group one races all over the world.

And before you start on your usual futile attempts to denigrate the quality of a horse like Highland Reel take a look at those six Group one races that he won and then take a look at the quality of the names of past winners of these very same races.

Sorry Gladys you can NOT rightfully denigrate the quality of Highland Reel, the Group one races that he won or the quality of horses that these same races continue to draw decade after decade.

Similarly Gladys for this very same reason you can NOT rightfully denigrate the quality of WINX who absolutely DOMINATED the six time G1 International star Highland Reel.

Gladys you said:

"We don't know how Winx would have fared as all she competed against were no hopers, duds and aged stablemates used as pacemakers."

Sorry but you are wrong yet again here Gladys as WINX dominated Criterion 4/G1s, Chautauqua 5/G1s, Highland Reel 6/G1s all of whom performed favourably on the International Stage.

Oh and its worth mentioning that you have to be a pretty special horse to add any Group one wins to your tally in either WFA sprints or WFA middle distance races when the likes of WINX or Black Caviar were racing.

 

 

The issue, King my friend, is that we all know how our great horses of yesteryear performed against other great horses of yesteryear because they competed against wach other and other quality horses..

We don't know how Winx would have fared as all she competed against were no hopers, duds and aged stablemates used as pacemakers.

Yes Gladys,

Rubiton was very good, especially on that day. I think that Vo Rogue definitely would have also set up that race up for something like WINX to come home over the top. 

This is an opinion that I feel most astute racing fans would agree with.

Sorry Gladys I'm afraid that its a case yet again of everybody else being out of step EXCEPT YOU!

Gladys,

Humidor is not a consideration.

As for Vo Rogue if he had run in this same Cox Plate:

IMO Winx would have done a Rubiton on him.

Rubiton was very good, especially on that day. I think somehow that Vo Rogue set that race up for something like Rubiton or OPP to come home over the top. Great ride by Handbrake too.

No not in every race, King, but in the majority of the races she contested he would have absolutely towelled those no hopers.

The Cox Plate is a different race and had a different tempo but when a no hoper like Humidor got that close it gives you a fair idea of the quality. 

What do you think Northerly would have done to Humidor and that field in that particular race. What do you think Vo Rogue or Might and Power would have done to Humidor and that field?

Gladys, 

Do you really think that if Northerly was pushed right out he could have
knocked more than 1.5 seconds off Winx's course race record and in doing so beat the likes of Humidor by 12 lengths or more in the same Cox Plate?

.

Gladys,

I am unsure of what you meant by:

"Now in relation to not answering questions, how are things going for you on that other forum?"

PLEASE EXPLAIN

 

  Add Reply

Have it your way Gladys, Winx beats Humidor by only a neck in superfast time, but Northerly beats Humidor by 12 lengths and earns a Timeform rating of 145.

Exactly Gary. He took on good horses in handicaps and weight for age. That is why the margins were small.

She raced against stable mates and total duds. That is why the margins were greater.

Oh whatever! It still amounts to Northerly winning by 12 lengths!

That is a total lie Gary and you know it.

I said that Northerly would beat the horses that Winx beat by 12 lengths. Your recollection seems to match your judgement.

Be a good girl.

Stop annoying Gary. He is too busy combing the States looking for all those good horses that were hiding from Winx.

Now in relation to not answering questions, how are things going for you on that other forum? 

Gary,

As you know its very frustrating trying to get a sensible answer or in many cases any answer out of Gladys. She is only capable of posting nonsensical rubbish which she can NOT back up with FACT.

Here is a previous example that I posted to Gladys some time ago which is in the same vein as your request of her. Read it and weep Gladys, just because you choose to put your head in the sand and ignore it, it does not mean that it can't come back and haunt you time and time again.

PREVIOUS POST TO GLADYS BY HER KING

Gladys, you wrote:
"Race times are not the criteria. Good horses do enough to win and that is all. Imagine some of the times if Vo Rogue, Might and Power or Manikato were pushed right out."

SIMILARLY THIS STATEMENT (your statement) IF IT HAS ANY CREEDENCE WHATSOEVER COULD ALSO BE APPLIED TO WINX.

ie. Imagine some of the times if WINX was pushed right out.

But the bit that I don't really get with you is that in one breath you are saying: "Race times are not the criteria."

But in the next breath you are saying: "Imagine some of the times if Vo Rogue, Might and Power or Manikato were pushed right out."

WHAT A CONTRADICTION!

Come on Gladys you cant have it both ways!

Your other statement that I would like to bring to your attention, which I must say amused me greatly was where you wrote:

"You mentioned Northerly. What would Vo Rogue, Sunline, Might and Power done to the fields that Winx beats. I tell you; 12 lengths eased down.

This is laughable!

Now I know that you sometimes say that: "Race times are not the criteria."

But pure mathematics would prove that given that Winx beat Humidor in the Cox Plate in a known time of 2:02.94 and by a margin of 0.4 len that we can quite reasonably estimate the extra time that Humidor would have taken to complete the last 0.4 len of the 2040m.

Now having established this time, an extremely conservative estimate would be that some IMAGINARY SUPER HORSE would have to knock more than 1.5 seconds off Winx's course and race record to be able to have beaten Hunidor by 12 lengths in the same Cox Plate.

Like I said: Your 12 length statement is LAUGHABLE!

AND YOU GLADYS ARE EQUALLY LAUGHABLE.

  Add Reply 1 Reply

I don't think it is a good idea to mention Humidor round Gary, King.

It brings back some very sad memories of a Melbourne Cup for him. Poor fellow is still in denial.

Here is a question for you to ponder.

What did Matthew Hayden's 380 against Zimbabwe, Warner's 335 against Pakistan and Winx's victories in Australia all have in common?

I will give you all a hint. Think about the opposition.

Gladys,

Similarly the programming of their horses races "CONTRARY" to my beliefs is just pure unadulterated "SPECULATION" on your part.

Look back over the past few years and yes they have certainly turned up here but the gutless wonders never had the intestinal fortitude to produce a horse to take on Winx in a Cox Plate.

I reiterate, the Japs are a very astute at placing their horses in races that they can win.

You said: 

"Do you really think the Japanese could care less about Winx."

Not anymore they don't, they had their chance at taking on Winx in a $5 million Cox Plate but did NOT attempt to do so as they were simply NOT confident of beating WINX.

Why would Winx want to travel to the other side of the world to race for far less prize money than she could consistently win here?

And why would the connections want to risk her coming down with virtually incurable travel sickness like Atlantic Jewel or even to a far, far lesser degree the illness that Black Caviar experienced when traveling overseas

In my opinion the only real reason for Winx to have traveled overseas would have been to be mated with one of their top stallions hmmm, Frankel x Winx may well have proven to be a dud but I would have liked to have seen this mating in any case. 

In my opinion it is a massive coincidence that the Japs did NOT turn up for a Cox Plate until immediately after Winx retired.

Am I right, who knows?

But there is an old saying that says something along the lines of:

if it looks like a duck, waddles like a duck & quacks like a duck then it more than likely is a duck!

Similarly all the evidence points to the Japs having been too scared to take on Winx with any of the Jap horses that did turn up.

You Gladys do NOT have the monopoly on what is or is NOT speculation.

I would go far as to speculate that traveled or not traveled the Japs never in four years had a horse of the caliber of Winx otherwise without a doubt they would have been down here attempting to plunder the extreme riches by "world standards" of our Cox Plate.

They simply did NOT ever in four years have a horse good enough to take on Winx in a Cox Plate, end of story!

 

Thanks for that great insight King.  Whilst you are in your evangelical state, how about telling me the names of the great weight for age horses she was beating here whilst the rest of the world was apparently hiding.

Perhaps you might also inform me of the best weight for age horses racing here at present.

Watching the Australian Cricket Team playing Pakistan sort of brings back memories of Winx.

Here we have our team performing like superstars against terrible opposition and all the party faithful crowing about how fabulous they are.

We only have to wait for them to go overseas to find out they can't play spin, can't play the moving ball and except for one or maybe two players, are pretty ordinary. Despite all this they are talked up non stop by the media.

Does it remind you of anything?

If anyone is unsure about the appalling standard of Australian horses at weight for age look no further than yesterday's Mackinnon for enlightenment.

The winner ran in the Cox Plate followed by the Melbourne Cup four days ago and then came back 1200 metres in distance to flog our no hopers. Magic Wand has had 15 attempts at Group One for no wins before yesterday. She has had 13 attempts at weight for age for no wins before yesterday yet she towels these these duds. Melody Belle ran well but she is a Kiwi whilst nine year old import Hartnell in his swansong showed them all his rear end.

The Spring Carnival is just becoming a charity for overseas horses that are second or third level at best.

Where are all those supposedly good horses that were hiding from Winx?  It seems all the duds she beat are now doing their bit for the imports.

Why do you think she did not travel or take on any races like the Caulfield Cup or any races throughout the Melbourne Cup Carnival at any stage of her career?

Sorry my reply went to the wrong thread:

I had a few dollars on both Mustajeer and the winner, thanks for asking. :)

I'm only a poor old fella, Like you, I enjoy a bet  but I can't afford to splash out like some.

Tue 05 Nov - 14:59:08
  • FO
Win and Place won
VOW AND DECLARE
Melbourne Cup
Stake
w$10.00
p$10.00
Odds
w11.00
p3.50
Return$145.00

Well done. Like you, I also got on and cheered him home. I thought that the other "sort of" Aussie horse (Surprise Baby) was desperately unlucky, Both fabulous runs and had it not been for Frankie another light weight pom would have won.

These Aussie bred horses are DUDs huh! Better luck next year when the Melbourne Cup field is made up of 23 Frankel's and perhaps a Canny Lad colt?

I always thought that Declaration of War was from the USA.

If you thought it had such a great chance BEFORE the race, why did you tip two different overseas horses to win?

Great work Gladys. 

I could not post to this forum for some time up until today. My three word post this morning has proved either;

A.I had the ban lifted (maybe the mods decided they needed the numbers to sustain the forum) or

B. There was some other problem in posting to the new forum. 

Either way, providing there are no similar issues going forward, I  am back and I will be around to highlight the lack of quality Aussie horses and of course state the facts on many other matters as I have in the past. There will be a lot to look forward to in the coming weeks.

 

 

 

Great to have you back Khap. Have a read through some of the posts, especially the one containing Gary's apology to you. Quite gracious of him I thought.

isnt it fabulous to see these nine year old horses with crook feet flogging the duds Winx used to beat.

 

Just how embarrassing was that arrival in the open car by the jockey and his wife and the former connections of the :world;s greatest horse" yesterday. I think it is well and truly time to let go of that memory of hopeless duds being beaten by an above average horse. If they want to live in the past, then perhaps connections of Folkswood should have pulled up in a car behind them just to remind the crowd of the horses she beat.

Another good idea would be to turn "that dress" in to jackets. Imagine how dashing our Gary would look when he fronts up to the Valley, a grief counsellor on each arm, whilst he sobs away during the pre race build up by Bruce.

Just how good are those Japanese connections and their wonderful horses. They are not frightened to travel to take on a race and show the world their mighty horses.

Meanwhile, back at Coward's Castle, for the few that hadn't realised, watch a rerun of the Cox Plate if you wish to know the reason why Winx never travelled.

Gladys you said:

"Just how good are those Japanese connections and their wonderful horses. They are not frightened to travel to take on a race and show the world their mighty horses."

I say:

Meanwhile, back at the Jap's Coward Castles not a Jap bred horse is seen in ANY of Winx's Cox Plate wins,

A patient lot those Japs, missing in action for years and years held up in Cowards Castle waiting for an easy kill.

There is no doubting that the Japs are a canny lot when assessing the ability of their horses against the projected opposition.

It is NO coincidence that the Japs only turn up for an attempt at a Cox Plate after Winx had retired.

 

Their programming of their horses races is just speculation on your part King. Look back over the past few years and they certainly have turned up here. The Cox Plate is not a big deal outside of Australia. In recent years it has been an extravagance for mediocre horses to compete. Do you really think the Japanese could care less about Winx. They send their third stringers here, just like Europe.

One thing they do though, is they do travel. Where didWinx go, The Sunshine Coast and melbourne to race against no hopers.

Wowee, here's a good ol' stoush! I conclude from this short dialogue that Gladys is a middle-aged bloke or sheila with a fancy pseudonym, maybe a failed punter or jockey with a massive chip on his/her shoulder.

I'm no Winx cheerleader, but I'm with Gary here.

Gladys, stop living in the past, your arguments are puerile, surely you're a pom or something worse?

Cheers

You are wrong on all counts regarding my background or status Jimmatty. I enjoy racing and have done for years. What I don't enjoy is our champions of the past having their stellar careers criticised to promote another horse as the greatest ever.

Now poor Gary has been unable to help me out so perhaps you can assist. Tell me, who are the best weight for age horses that Winx beat. Now that Winx has retired, Who is our current best wfa horse over middle distances?

Those no hopers that Winx used to beat are now getting flogged by a nine year old with crook feet. What does that tell you?

Apologies for getting you wrong Gladys, and I take back that word- puerile. I take it you're referring to Happy Clapper there, and he did run to 129 timeform last year so I would say he is fairly decent opposition.

Other than that, there is a lack of depth and it's unfortunate that we're in an era when horses such as The Autumn sun are retired so early for their stud value.

I'll still regard Winx as a champion in any era, but most certainly would not stretch it out to "greatest ever". It would have been interesting had she come up against the likes of So You Think, Octagonal, Sunline etc. I'll leave the rest to you & Gary


No Jimmatty I was referring to the other nine year old with crook feet that is beating the other load of duds down south, BHB.

Gary and his cronies love to bang on about "all the good horses" that were hiding from Winx. She has now retired but no one seems to know who these so called 
good horses" are or were. If they were hidden then they did a good job, no one can either find them or even remember their names.

I agree with your view that she would have been good in any era but not a champion. Too many good horses around up until about fifteen years ago, when only the very best could string multiple wins together. The duds she beat would have been lapped by the stars of yesterday.

I've been thinking and doing a bit of research, and my original comment was un-called for.. I was a bit out of sorts that night. Anyway, from an objective viewpoint I think timeform ratings are informative to this argument. I don't think I've heard anyone refer to Winx as the "greatest ever" and if they did they would be delusional. When you look at the ratings from the last few years, the best that she has defeated are Happy Clapper and Benbatl- both rated 129, although she only beat Benbatl once- in the Cox plate, and she did not run in the Doncaster in which HC posted his peak rating. Benbatl's first-up victory at Newmarket (forget the bog-track run at Ascot) has convinced me of the form despite the fact that there are some who still knock the horse for not winning a G1 in Europe. The 129 rating puts those two on par with the likes of Dundeel, Dulcify, Northerly, Sunline and Makybe Diva. Winx herself sits in equal 13th place with Galilee and marginally ahead of SYT, Might and Power and Gunsynd. I think this is a fair reflection of her status among the greats of the past. It would have been nice to see Winx take on better opposition on a regular basis, she may have risen to an even higher level, but the breeding industry has put paid to that idea. It's fairly obvious to see that the Euro imports are far superior to most Aus/NZ bred gallopers at 1600m

*plus

I think you may well have put Gary and his disciples in Team Dunderhead in to therapy, Jim.

 

Self-correction- Benbatl won G1's in Germany and Dubai. I meant to say the UK where he has won at G2 and G3 level and now has an official rating of 126

I typed "Gary Still" in author box and "Humidor" in Keyword box. It took one second for the incredible R&S search facility to generate 6 posts.

None of them make mention of the Melbourne Cup. Why would somebody LIE, when the proof is at everyone's fingertips.

 

Do the search yourself Gary. You even answered that post twelve months ago.

You seem to like calling people liars when you get found out, don't you.

1. Your comment about Humidor is a blatant LIE.

2. Your scenario to pit two champions against each other with one bungling the start at its least preferred journey, and the other a front runner at its best journey, is preposterous.

 

Which particular horse did she beat that makes you confident she could overcome the scenario I proposed Gary?

As to your request for information regarding your assessment of Humidor, that was supplied to you over twelve months ago, and you know it.

Good horse, best of her era, beat nuthin'.

"What do you think would have happened if it was Manikato out in front when Winx bungled the start?"

A distance of 1400m is anything but ideal for Winx, She won at those distances on class alone. You now try to denigarate Winx by placing her at 1400m and having her bungle the start against a tearaway champion in Manikato. Why not stick another 10kg in her saddle bag for good measure?

She overcame impossible odds many times. Even the ridiculous scenario you propose would probably not be beyond her.

 

 
 

Instead of worrying about people doing searches for you Gary why don't you comment on the history of Manikato. You wanted an example and I gave you one.

What do you think the horses that Manikato beat would have done to those no hopers that Winx beat? What do you think would have happened if it  was Manikato out in front when Winx bungled the start.? Up to a mile he would have run her into the ground. More than a mile, Vo Rogue and Might and Power would have done likewise.

Good horse, best of her era, beat nuthin'.

"I just could not be bothered Gary. I simply can't be bothered as no matter what I say you will want to have the last word"

Key in Humidor and Gary Still, It takes 5 seconds. Not too much bother for you to defend your allegation that I tipped Humidor for 2017 Melbourne Cup.

I just could not be bothered Gary. I simply can't be bothered as no matter what I say you will want to have the last word.

I know how you marvel at Winx rounding up no hopers. I used to love going to the trots as a child before they had mobile starts in every race. The duds used to start off the front line and then there was a staggered start going back up to 100 metres for the better horses. I remember Alacani and Bay Foyle giving these no hopers 100 metres and then rounding them up. I had forgotten all about that until Winx won that race and it all came back. Funny thing is, if they had all started on even terms these horses would not have won by 100 metres but give them a dud or two to catch and they have no troubles. Chautaucha and Belle du Jour spring to mind.

Good horse, best of her era, beat nuthin'.

 

Hi Guys, still whinging i see? Shame on you.

Here are horses for the weekend for the sore losers to back. Demerara, (Hartnell), Krone, Bella Martini, Sandbar (Pierata, Sunlight), Samadoubt, Emperors Way.

Good luck and stop the in house fighting; that is why I left because some bastards had a negative look about everything.

Be positive and good luck. Cheers Kizzy.

Current Unitab market on Hartnell CC into Kings Will Dream MC=$985 for $1. Minimum bet $5.

 

              

"Tell me, will you be rating Humidor on top for this years Melbourne Cup like you did in 2017?"

Well Gladys, you failed to name which "champions" could have chased down Red Excitement and Foxplay; you failled to prove objectively that the standard of opposition in the current era has slipped and now you claim I made a statement about Humidor to win the 2017 Melbourne Cup. You now have three chances to make yourself a hero.

The search function has improved 500%, so go for it. Just key in Humidor, the author and make the date range around November 2017.  

 

You asked for my opinion and I gave it to you Gary. If you think I have no idea then I could not care less.

You continually ask posters for their views just to give you a platform to criticise them and big note yourself.

Go and bore someone else with your self promotion and inflated ego. Oh hang on, there is no one else. Everyone has had enough of you and left this forum. Maybe the Parrot will come back so you someone to suck up to you.

Tell me, will you be rating Humidor on top for this years Melbourne Cup like you did in 2017?

 

You mentioned three horses that Winx beat.

  1. Invictus Prince.  Winx first up at 1400m.
  2. Foxplay.             Winx first up at 1400m – missed start by 4-5 lengths. Flattened to win.
  3. Red Excitement. Winx 2nd up at 1600m - after being flattened previous start

Winx is at its most vulnerable first up, yet you gutlessly use these performances to find merit in your twisted views. Name which horses from your “champions” list that could have bungled the start by 4 lengths at 1400m, trailed by 7 lengths at the 350m mark and still won. 

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dV1dzAqvLDg

The worst thing you can do to a horse is flatten it first up. Yet, she backed up a fortnight later, still suffering the effects of its hard first up run, bereft of its usual zest and having to concede Red Excitement about 7 lengths at the 300m  mark. Name which horses from your “champions” list that could have eaten up the ground, hands and heels, as Winx did.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngfQsPzltH0

She overcame incredible adversity in those two runs, yet you cite these runs as proof she is NOT a champion? You simply have no idea.

 

You said you'd provide a basis of measurment to verify your claims and compare field strengths from different eras. I expected an objective basis of measurement. Where is it?

And why have you abandoned Sunline, Northerly, Lonhro and are now going back FORTY years?

And where are the internationals amongst that group?

I don't get it.

 

Lovely to hear from you Gary. I apologise for the delay but I was conscious of the fact that as Winx had now retired you would be in a state of mourning and more than likely, the recipient of some extensive grief counselling. I imagine there would be a massive void in your weekends now that there is no watching Winx beat up stable mates, aged handicappers and the rest of the total duds that made up her competition. Like BC before her, Winx had the benefit of Regumate and we all know how important that is. Look at BC when she wasn't able to use it in the UK. She barely fell in against a horse that never won over the distance before.

I will grant one thing to BC. Although she beat no hopers she did manage to beat Hay List, who although was not a champion, was at least reasonable.

Now as for champions, look no further than the great Manikato. After winning the double in his two year old year he beat the following good horses throughout his long career. Just look at the horses he beat;

Turf Ruler, Karaman, The Judge, Lipman, Grey Sapphire, Hauberk, Always Welcome, Family of Man,Gypsy Kingdom ,Lefroy, Leonotis, Belmura Lad, Double Century, Bernard, Steel Blade, Qubeau, Hyperno, Lawman, Galleon, Rancher, Sovereign Red, Opera Prince,Razor Sharp, Ideal Planet, Torbek,Prince Ruling,Ming Dynasty, Yer Tiz,Ubetido, Silver Bounty, Watney, Ducatoon, Pure of Heart and Roms Stilletto just to name a few.

Lesser horses he beat included; 

Adlantic Flyer, Binbinga,Black Opaque, Bold Jet, Creppelox, Full On Aces, Imposing, Jewel Flight, Joyita, Just A Steal, Lloyd Boy, Love A Show, Marceau, My Axeman, Oenjay Star, Scamanda, Silver Wraith, Stormy Rex, Think Big and Waitangarua.

Manikato had a perfect ten out of ten first up victories over his magnificent career.  He won 22 races currently listed as Group One Races. At aged seven, he had 11 starts for 5 wins, 2 seconds and 3 thirds. His least successful year was aged five when he won three races currently classed as Group Ones. It should be noted he only had three starts as a five year old.

All this was achieved although he had a heart attack, a bleeding and countless tendon issues.

Now Gary, that is what a champion is. He didn't take on no hoping stablemates, he didn't sit out the back whilst his stablemates formed a guard of honour at a jog trot, he carried weight, set a weight carrying record as a three year old. He just went straight to the front, gave nothing a chance and ran his opposition into the ground. He stretched out to 2000 metres and except for a horse called Dulcify would have won that race too. 

Read through the names of the horses he beat Gary and then have a look at names like Invictus Prince, Red Excitement, Fox Wedge.

Tell me that era was no good Gary. Tell me the present era is top shelf, where a nine year old with crook feet is the heir apparent.

I can't wait for your reply.

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