We will start off with an easy one.

Can someone name the two full brothers that ran 1st and 2nd in the Melbourne Cup.

The next year the 2nd horse did what ........

He was taken to England and won a couple of races.

Name the trainer and jockey who took him......


You need to Login to Post a Answer in the Forum

I have been looking at LOVE CONQUERS ALL’s progeny.

Be very interesting to see what they do with MAGIC CONQUEROR.

Kelly Schweida paid about $45000.He’s still a colt I hope.He’s won 3 from 16 at present.

Just recently he sat outside Ellsberg in the Gunsysnd Classic won by Ayrton.He faded in the straight to run 8 of 10.

I saw him win his maiden when he was pretty erratic.He wears pacifiers that make him look like a frog,

Now,the moral of the story is.......

St.Simon is on the top line of his pedigree and he is also sniffing around on the bottom line through my darling La Flèche.

The successful Bowness Stud at Young bred him I think.

Maybe King You could become advisor to these studs to let them know what history they have in their hands.

And who knows ??? Maybe this fellow could keep St.Simons line going.Stranger things have happened.



Well done Branded, fingers crossed!

To the best of my knowledge Love Conquers All is the last active direct male line descendant stallion active anywhere in the world.

But who knows there may well be others standing in obscure places like India, Turkey, Chile or Argentina etc......???

Mossman 1995 retired from stud duties at age 22 years old.

Retired (01/01/2018)

Not a bad innings for the old boy, I hope he is enjoying his retirement.

Who knows maybe Mossman or Love Conquers All can sire a top sire.

It only takes “one” to keep the line moving.

Love Conguers All 

Being by Mossman


Sorry Branded its a red card for you!

Unfortunately you seem to be missing the point of my question.

I wrote:

"direct male line to the GREAT St Simon?" 

NOT a sire line descending from a sire who was out of a St Simon mare.

It has to be father (St Simon) to a son to a grandson to a great grandson to a great great grandson etc, etc ..... uninterrupted to the current generation of a stallion standing at stud (i.e. an uninterrupted direct male line to St Simon)

This would have been a relatively easy task in say the year 2000 but in this day and age its a bit more of a challenge than you first think.

Your early CROW answer Fiorente is way off the mark as he does not descend direct male line from the great St Simon.

The nearest notable direct male line stallion in Fiorente's pedigree born around about the same year as St Simon 1881 would be Isinglass 1890.

Isinglass won the 2000 Guineas, Epsom Derby, St Leger, Ascot Gold Cup & the Middle Park Stakes and went on to sire 9 Stakes winners.

Come on is there anybody out there that will take up my CHALLENGE?

What about you dhaulagiri?, you generally appear to be pretty switched on regarding this sort of stuff.

Come on what's the answer or is your King going to keep it a secret all to himself.

It would be so sad if this particular sire (or are there others???) which are direct male line to the breed shaping St Simon do not eventually sire a decent multiple Stakes Winning son who may then be able to continue this male line which has been so dominant and highly influential for approximately 135 years now.


Couple of words missing from previous post

.... then the sire line was

Let me explain.............

St Simon and Quiver sired a daughter La Flèche who was the dam of John O’Gaunt....then Swynford,Blandford,Bahram,Persian Gulf,Tamerlane,Dschingis Khan,Konigsstuhl,Monsun,Fiorente.

If I am disqualified at La Flèche I have gone the early crow.



There is another GREAT male line which has almost petered out and that is St Simon.


Can any body tell me the name of the only stallion standing in Australia if not the world

(as far as I am aware)

who is still direct male line to the GREAT St Simon?

You get one clue.

A study of the pedigrees of Cox Plate winners of the last twenty years will give you a clue to the answer.

In other words what is common in the pedigree of a number of these Cox plate winners? 

This if you accept my challenge will help you to find the answer.

To the best of my knowledge Carbine's direct male line died out with Carioca 1947 although he did have a couple of stallions that also stood at stud Kuramin 1967 1/SW & Marioca 1965 1/SW I don't think that they sired anything of note to continue the male line.

Therefore to the best of my knowledge the Carbine male line has died out.

This is the last successive direct male line of CARBINE stallions that I can find:

Carbine 1885 30/SW,  Spearmint 1903 2/SW,  Spearhead 1913, 2/SW,  Spearfelt 1921 8/SW,  Felt Yet 1938 1/SW,  Carioca 1947 8/SW,  then Carioca had two reasonably non descript stallion sons in Marioca 1965 1/SW & Kuramin 1967 1/SW but as far as I am aware neither of these two stallions sired a SW or a stallion good enough to commercially continue the male line of CARBINE.

Unfortunately this is what happens over time.

The male line of the great HYPERION 1930 is almost gone, not too many prominent stallions male line to HYPERION left. 

Thanks to the success of Sprit of Boom in this country it may survive for a while longer.


Branded, do you have access to the Australian Stud Book? There is a heap of information on Carbine there including his winning below.

Carbine (by Musket (GB) 1867 from Mersey (GB) 1874 )

Stakes Winning Progeny

Winner-Year-Race Name That Year-Status

Amberite (AUS) 1894-1898

-AJC St Leger Stakes -Pr

-1898-VRC Champion Stakes -Pr

-1897-VRC Victoria Derby -Pr

-1897-VATC Caulfield Cup -Pr

-1897-AJC Derby -Pr

-1898-AJC Randwick Plate -Pr

-1898-AJC Cumberland Stakes -Pr

-1898-AJC Plate -Pr

-1897-Tatt's NSW Hampden Stakes -Pr

Bomba (GB ) 1906-1909 -GB Ascot Gold Cup -Pr

Camp Fire (GB ) 1903-1907-GB King's Stand Stakes -Pr

Carbineer (AUS) 1895-1900-WATC Perth Cup -Pr

Charge (AUS) 1893-1896-AJC Derby -Pr

Defence (GB ) 1910-1917

-WmtnRC Easter Cup -Pr

-1918-VRC Australian Cup -Pr

-1915-TRC Hobart Cup -Pr

Flintlock (AUS) 1893-1901

-WATC Perth Cup -Pr

-1899-TTC Launceston Cup -Pr

-1899-TRC Hobart Cup -Pr

Fucile (AUS) 1893-1897-AJC Randwick Plate -Pr

La Carabine (AUS) 1894-1901

-VRC Essendon Stakes -Pr

-1901-VRC Champion Stakes -Pr

-1902-VRC Champion Stakes -Pr

-1900-AJC Sydney Cup -Pr

-1900-VRC Australian Cup -Pr

-1900-AJC Plate -Pr

-1901-AJC Plate -Pr

-1901-AJC Cumberland Stakes -Pr

-1900-AdelRC Alderman Cup -Pr

-1901-SAJC Elder Stakes -Pr

-1901-AdelRC Parkside Stakes -Pr

Lee Metford (AUS) 1895-1899-AJC Cumberland Stakes -Pr

Marie Corelli (AUS) 1895-1901

-GeelRC Geelong Cup -Pr

-1903-QTC Spring Stakes -Pr

Metford (AUS) 1894-1896

-VATC Debutant Stakes -Pr

-1897-VRC Hotham Handicap -Pr

Miss Carbine (AUS) 1893-1899-VRC Hotham Handicap -Pr

Model (AUS) 1895-1900-GeelRC Geelong Cup -Pr

Mousqueton (GB ) 1901-1904-GB Sussex Stakes -Pr

Mural (AUS) 1895-1899-WATC Perth Cup -Pr

Playaway (GB ) 1900-1904

-VATC Futurity Stakes -Pr

-1905-VRC Newmarket Handicap -Pr

Raven's Plume (AUS) 1894-1898-NJC Newcastle Cup -Pr

Spearmint (GB ) 1903-1906

-GB Epsom Derby Stakes -Cr

-1906-FR Grand Prix de Paris -Pr

Wallace (AUS) 1892-1896

-AJC Sydney Cup -Pr

-1895-VATC Caulfield Guineas -Pr

-1896-VRC Champion Stakes -Pr

-1896-AJC St Leger Stakes -Pr

-1894-VRC Flying Stakes -Pr

-1895-VRC Victoria Derby -Pr

-1896-AJC Cumberland Stakes -Pr

-1895-VRC C.B. Fisher Plate -Pr

War God (AUS) 1894-1900-VRC Hotham Handicap -Pr

Carbine's old stall is still at Flemington Racecourse and can be visited.

Branded that's a big job to do the entire spectrum of Carbine's bloodlines.

Give me a couple of specific questions re Carbine now and then and I will help out when and if I can.

Be great if someone had the time and know how to go through Carbine (Old Jacks)lines.

If I had the records and probably know how maybe I could do it.

I have read reports where he wasn’t very successful at Stud.

He sired Spearmint who won an Epsom Derby.He also sired Wallace who was a top racehorse and sire in the great land downunder.

There would be a lot of greats who would not have been invented if Carbine did not keep his lines going.

One Great Melbourne Cup winner springs to mind.

That’s incredible when you look into those bloodlines King.

You made me think when you said if there was no Selene.

Imagine the greats missing if there was no Carbine.





Here's the first chapter re SELENE

SELENE is the dam of the great sire Hyperion

Hyperion is 4m x 3m to St Simon

Both Hyperion and St Simon were the breed shapers of their eras in a similar fashion to say Star Kingdom, Nasrullah, Northern Dancer, Mr Prospector or Danehill.

SELENE was also dam of: 

Night Shift Yorkshire Oaks

Pharamond who sired Menow whose male line produced the following succession of great stallions:

Tom Fool,( Buckpasser & Silly Season)

Silly Season in turn sired the male line succession of Lunchtime & Snippets

Note our current great sire SNITEL is out of a Snippets mare.

 Sickle sired the following successive male line dynasty:

Unbreakable, Polynesian, Native Dancer and Raise a Native who in turn sired both Alydar & Mr Prospector.

And here's some food for thought Both Northern Dancer and Danehill are both heavily laden with the blood of SELENE as:

Northern dancer is 3f Hyperion x 2f Native Dancer


Danehill is 2m Northern Dancer x 3f Buckpasser

Further to this if we did not have SELENE there would have been no Hyperion therefore no Star Kingdom, Todman, Kingston Town etc....

Or Northern Dancer, Mr Prospector, Redoutes Choice, Snitzel or Sir Tristram for that matter

Amazing when you look through Sir Tristram pedigree.

That “GREAT”racehorse and mother Selene is on both sides of his pedigree.

When you look at the great Sires and mares in his blood you wonder how the hell Sir Patrick Hogan was able to purchase him.

Although he only won two races out of nineteen and finished 11th in the Kentucky Derby with our old mate Bill Hartack on his back,you would need a book to show the achievements of Sir Tristram and his relatives.

You could write a book on Selene.

Yeah Branded, sorry about that.

Yes you are right I really cocked that up so I will attempt to correct same and post it again.


As a matter of interest its worth noting that Secretariat's dam Somethingroyal (by Princequillo)

is also the dam of the great racehorse and sire Sir Gaylord (by Turn To) who sired both Sir Ivor and Habitat

Sir Ivor and Habitat were not only great racehorses but they were also both very good sires. 

Sir Ivor, in turn sired the NZ & Aus breed shaping stallion Sir Tristram who was imported to stand in NZ all those years ago.

Sir Tristram was a world record breaking stallion at the time as he was responsible for siring 126 SW. 

It is interesting to note that Sir Tristram has a double cross of 4f x 3m to Princequillo in his pedigree.

Princequillo sired the great middle distance racehorses and highly influential sire Round Table.

Round Table won 33 PR and sired 41 SW

Sir Tristram was and continues to be a highly influential stallion in the pedigree of our elite horses.

It would be an interesting exercise to look at the pedigrees of all of the major 2000m plus Stakes race Winners of the last forty odd years and list only the ones that did NOT have any Sir Tristram in their pedigrees and then compare this list to the ones that did have some Sir Tristram in their pedigrees.

Habitat sired 27 SW including the great race mare Habibti (Ire)



You might want to visit those lines again.Sometimes we can get into a tangle with bloodlines.



Secretariat's 8th dam is Co-ee (GB) 1899.

She is by Trenton (NZ) 1881

Trenton is by Musket (GB) 1867

Musket is the sire of the great CARBINE who won 30 PR including a Melbourne Cup & two Sydney Cups.

Trenton's second dam is Flora Mcivor (Aus) 1866

But here's where the confusion arises:

The second dam of Flora Mcivor (Aus) 1866 is "ALSO" named Fora Mcivor and is listed in the Aus Studbook as Flora Mcivor (Aus) 18-?

She is by Rous' Emigrant (GB) 1822 out of Cornelia (Aus) 1825

As a matter of interest its worth noting that Secretariat's dam Somethingroyal (by Princequillo)

is also the dam of the great racehorse and sire Sir Ivor  who in turn shaped was responsible for shaping our our breed in both NZ and Australia as he is the sire of the record breaking sire Sir Tristram who was imported to stand in NZ all those years ago.

Somethingroyal was also the dam of the great racehorse and sire Habitat who in turn sired the great race mare Habibti (Ire)

Hope this clears up the confusion for you.


(Re the two mares named Flora Mcivor in Secretariats pedigree)

Flora McIvor1828 was a foal from the mating of Rous Emigrant (GB)1822 And Cornelia (AUS)1825 

Flora McIvor 1828 was the dam of IO 1855 who was the dam of Flora Mcivor1866 from  a mating between New Warrior(GB)1851 and IO 1855.

IO mother was Flora Mcivor and her daughter was also called Flora Mcivor.

I am relying on some old records I have.I do not have any stud books to double check.Maybe someone can shed some light.


Just been sticky beaking(again)at Secretariats pedigree.

i noticed some Aussie mares and some of our best sires in the pedigree.

Trenton is there he is ex Nzer.

Even Dhaulagiri’s Fireworks.

The Irish Sir Hercules and the great Aussie Sir Hercules also.

Other top Aussies.

It’s a bit confusing because the pedigree I looked at had the mare Flora McIvor  mentioned twice in the pedigree.

I’ll try and sort it out but I’m a bit slow these days.

Maybe someone can sort it out a bit quicker.

I’m not  Interested in backing any of these horses I just looked at their pedigrees and I thought you might find their families very interesting.


Rhight oh, if it makes you happy, fair enough we will choof you up from 33% to a pass mark of 50%.

Gees that's a lot of picks in one race Branded

Unfortunately I don't actually have much of an interest in USA dirt track racing but I might have a dollar each way on the roughie



Please elaborate on what it is that you find interesting about Helium's bottom line

Essential Quality & Highly Motivated 

Both worth a look.

Hidden Stash worth a look also.

The Kentucky Derby tomorrow morning.

Helium has an interesting bottom line King.

Thanks for the support King.

But I do believe it was better than 33%

Because I correct my second mistake b4 anyone said anything.

Well done Branded, you eventually got them all correct.


You say that:

"You have fried my brain with this one King."

Yes, it would appear so.

Now for your grading in your special subject of "Everything Bernborough"

You got 3/9 i.e. three correct out of nine picks which equates to a score of 33%.

I dare say that that will get your brain sizzling once again.


Sorry my final answer is

Whalebone 1810

Whisker 1815

Middleton 1825

You have fried my brain with this one King.

My years were not correct

Cotherstone 1843

Orlando 1844

Surplice 1848

Cotherstone 1840

How many crows am I allowed?

Cornerstone 1840

Orlando 1841

Surplice 1845

Todman is spot on!

Bernfield - 1929 QTC Guineas and Derby 

His dam Breccia was a full sister to Bernborough's dam Bern Maid.


BRANDED none of your early crows are correct, perhaps you could do a little more research and come back with a late crow or two.


But I'm tipping that Todman is likely to beat you to the all important final "VICTORY CROW" 

I am going to go the early crow 

Gainsborough 1918

Hyperion 1933

Mahmoud 1936


Bernfield - 1929 QTC Guineas and Derby 

Ok Branded time to up the hardness scale on the BERNBOROUGH questions.

This should be easy for you Todman, you and your family must have all been so very proud when your younger brother Shifnal married into the Berborough clan.

Question 1

Who was BERNBOROGH's very, very close Australian relation that won a Derby and a Guineas many, many years before BERNBOROUGH had even been heard of?


Question 2

While on the subject of Derby winners who are the three GB Epsom Derby winners and their respective years of winning that are directly descended from the same tail female line as BERNBOROUGH?

I made a mistake.

Jorrocks was at the stud.

But was a retired racehorse only.



Sorry your right King.

At least he was at the stud.

His girlfriend must have been there.


Re your: "Can someone tell me who was the horse that stood at Stud(not tellin which one)


Your: "Surprised you couldn’t come up with him King."

Sorry Branded but I was looking for a STALLION.

I may be wrong but I have it from two different sources including the Australian Stud Book that Jorrocks was a GELDING!

You have him King,Great.

There is a nice article on him in the Hawkesbury Gazette Dec 12 2016 9.42a.m.

The only horse known as the Phar Lap of the 1840's that I can come up with is Jorrocks.


Surprised you couldn’t come up with him King.

The clue was in Hawkesbury,and Society and Racecourse and Richmond and RAAFand Oblisk and plaque.

He was known as the Phar Lap Of The 1840,s. 

You could do a top job with this fellow King.


I'll take a wild throw at the stumps and say MARS

Get you some of this people.

Can someone tell me who was the horse that stood at Stud(not tellin which one).When he died the owner was going to stuff him,but it was too expensive.Then he was going to preserve the skeleton but that didn’t eventuate either.

He dumped the horse over the road on the common which is now Richmond Air Base.

The chap who ran the pub walked over and cut off the horses head.

Because of his wife’s complaints he buried it in the pubs garden where it presumably rests today.

Apparently years later in 1965 the Hawkesbury historical society and the Hawkesbury race club and the RAAF erected a brick Obelisk and a plaque on the supposed burial site of some of his bones on the Air Base But the memorial was later removed to the Hawkesbury racecourse where it can be still be seen.

The horse raced in the 1800’s.

I would tell you more but I would give his name away.

“Morons should never ever own horses”

If anyone wants to see a Champion Racehorse watch Bernborough win the Doomben 10,000 over 6 furlongs.

The caller said he was 70 yards behind the leaders after going a short distance.

I’ m not sure if he said there were 27 starters or 37 starters. 

Just watch them come around the turn.

It’s the charge of the Light Brigade.

He came from nowhere to win.

The crowd was 45 thousand.

Youtube (Australia’s Richest Horse Race)


I could post all of his race weight stats but this one will do me.

He won a Doomben  Cup approx. 11f easily under hands and heels riding (only shaking the reins at him) but still pulling away from the quality field at the finish when carrying ten stone eleven pounds

(approx. 68.5kg)


 There is a 12 minute film on YouTube about Bernborough.

The Story Of Bernborough.

Amazing to see those barnstorming finishes of his under those big weights.

He eventually broke down in the McKinnon Stakes which you will see.

Thats a good project for you  King with your knowledge to show the punters the weights they made him carry.

My puter is back home and I don’t think I would know where to look through the records anyway.

 Further to the previous post I Am Verve's 3rd dam Our Cure won G1 NZ 1000 Guineas and a G3 NZ Champion Stakes. 

The 4th dam Key won eleven Principal Races.


You are probably right re "make a lovely broodmare" as this is not only a good bottom line female family but also Pure Energy is by Mossman (by Success Express)

Success Express has been the BM sire of three individual Cox Plate Winners.

Pure Energy and Segments are full sisters.

Madam Curie (NZ) 1992
 Aust.Id.: 573258 brown mare Date of Birth: 17/10/1992 
 Microchip Number: N/A 2 stakeswinners & 3 stakeswins DNA Typed: Y 
 by Bletchingly (AUS) 1970 Contact: Eureka Thoroughbreds Pty Ltd, Qld 
 from Our Cure (NZ) 1983 Died (02/09/2014)  
Stakes Winning Progeny
Winner Year Race Name That Year Status
Pure Energy (AUS) 2003 2006 STC Reisling Stakes 2
Segments (AUS) 2001 2005 MRC Schillaci Stakes 2
  2003 AJC Gimcrack Stakes L

Just watched a race from Bendigo won by I Am Verve .

The owner bought her on line from Gerald Ryan I think he said.

She is by I Am Invincible x Pure Energy

Pure Energy ran second in the Slipper to Miss Finland,in mid ‘00s.

Dont know what he paid but should make a lovely broodmare after racing as she’s only a 3 year old filly.


Note two Stakes winners Getting Closer & Instrumental.


Petwood (GB) 1971
 Aust.Id.: 151605 chestnut mare Date of Birth: 00/00/1971 
  2 stakeswinners & 8 stakeswins  
 by Petingo (GB) 1965  
 from Grove Hall (GB) 1959    
Stakes Winning Progeny
Winner Year Race Name That Year Status
Getting Closer (NZ ) 1978 1984 BATC Rothman's "100 000" 1
  1983 WATC Railway Stakes 1
  1983 VATC St George Stakes 2
  1982 WATC Lee Steere Stakes 2
  1982 VATC Schweppes Cup 3
  1982 MVRC Waterford Crystal Mile L
Instrumental (NZ ) 1987 1993 AJC Warwick Farm Spring Cup L
  1992 QTC Castlemaine Perkins Handicap L

Just a bit of trivia.

Grove Hall x Hook Money was the second dam of Getting Closer.

Who could forget Mark Read pulling off a million dollar plunge at Canterbury in the early 80’s,trained by Henry Davis.

Getting Closer went on to win several top races.

Shandon Belle

Hook Money sired Shannon Belle winner 

Irish 1000 Guineas.

Daylight. Robbery sired Tucson who sired Sloop.

I think Sloop fits in there 

He won South African Guineas 

Todman(N.Sellwood)I’m pretty sure your correct.

You were way ahead of me.

That took a bit of working out.


Q3 Daylight Robbery

Q4 La Troienne

Q5 Bimelech

Well done Todman on Q1 & Q2 but no cigar on Q3.

In any case Todman, no fair with your answer Shifway, of course you would know this one.

Have you seen your brothers Noholme & Shifnal or your nephew Shifway lately?

Come on Todman, after all its all in the family for you.

Surely you must be able to work out the correct answers to the other three questions. 

Perhaps you could give your [email protected] sister in law WENDY a call, she may be able to help out.

Q1 Biscawong & Shifway

Q2 Hook Money

Q3 I'll Be Lucky


OK Branded, (and others) time to up the scale of hardness on the Bernborough questions.

Q1. Who were the two GOOD Sydney sprinters who who match these clues?

a. They were both out of the same mare who was a daughter of a son of Bernborough. ie. his grandaughter

b. They were 3/4 brothers to each other.

c. They both sired four Stakes winners

d. One of these Sprinters had three Stakes wins while the other although a very good sprinter in his own right only had one Stakes win.

Q2. Who was the son of Bernborough that sired the dam of those two good Sydney sprinters who matches these clues?

a. He coincidently also sired four Stakes winners.

b. One of these Stakes winners was an Irish stallion who not only won the GB July Cup PR (now G1) 6f but also went on to sire a G1 South African Guineas winner.

c. Another of his Stakes winners was a filly/mare who won the IRE One Thousand Guineas 8f Classic Race (now G1)

d. His 2nd dam is a French mare who again coincidently was the dam of four Stakes winners including one stallion who among his eight PR Stakes wins won the USA Belmont Stakes, USA Preakness (2 legs of the triple crown) and also USA Blue Grass Stakes.

Q3. Who is the Irish stallion who matches the clue in Q2. b. above?

Q4. Who is the great French mare that matches the clue in Q2. d. above?

Q5. Who is the stallion who matches the clue in Q3. d. above?

Sorry forget last question re Aquasarto 

I have got wrong horses .

Derrrrrrr ......

Even I know this one.

The South African mare Aquasarto had one of her sons name in lights one Saturday in Australia.

Can someone tell us why ........




Your correct again Todman (N.Sellwood)

You fellas are right on the ball. 

Would love to have seen Bernborough.


1965 Jay Trump - dam is by Bernborough

Can someone name the Champion U.S.Steeplechaser(in my opinion) who won the Grand National Steeplechase at Aintree,whose dam was sired by an Australian Champion(in my opinion)


Actually I had to do a bit of delving into the past.

A book I have in my possession titled Major Australian Races and Racehorses 1960 to 1980 by Peter Pring conveniently lists the star horses by birth year, so Tobin Bronze looked the most likely. A Studbook check led to Sister Olive as his 4th dam, and the info that she won the 1921 Melbourne Cup.

Absolutely correct Dhaulagiri(G.Lane)

Your pretty good.

What a great horse he was.


Hi Branded, 

My guess is Tobin Bronze whose 4th dam was Sister Olive who won the 1921 Melbourne Cup

Can anyone name the Aussie Champ(in my eyes)who won 28 races,and is in the  Hall Of Fame.

He was foaled in 1962.

He died in 1994 in the U.S.

His 4th dam won the Melbourne Cup.(This should give you the answer)

He also won the Donny with me walking around with my chest out after I told the world he would.Each lie I told and another button would fly off.


If you get the chance,have a sticky-beak at the mares and what they have achieved on Sir Dragonets bottom line.

When you look through the Bloodlines of Verry Elleegant you would have to think she will be a top mum.

On both sides of her pedigree you see wonderful horses.

There are reports her sire Zed fathers Draught Horses.

He must be a big strong fella.

I hope I live long enough to see Verry Elleegants progeny.

Whilst on the subject I have been a leading sire myself.(but that’s for others to judge)

Just read an article from the Sydney Morning Herald relating to Martello Towers dated April 5 2007.

It states Martello Towers didn’t drown.

Wow i’ve thought for all those years he did drown.

Well that’s made my day

I won’t spoil the article for anyone if you wish to read it.

But they did say his Name was Pinky as you will understand when you read the article.

Forget what I typed in to find it.Think  it was Martello Towers drowns.

Re Martello towers, I remember him as well. I've got a few pictures of him in a horse racing  scrap book I kept in the early 1960s when I was a teenager.

You got the money King.

You will always have those wonderful memories with your family.

Fort Denison Sydney Harbour, originally built to defend against the Russians.

The reason I know all this is that we visited same on my son's 16th birthday (historical building high school project) .

The really cool thing for him was that when they foound out it was his birthday they selected him to fire the one o'clock gun (cannon)

Martello Towers was one of my favourite horses.He was a terrific horse,He won one of the Guineas and the derby as I remember. 

He was a grey and I adored him.I was only a kid and I was devastated when he drowned in the floods,in the early 60’s I think.

If anyone knows what a Martello Tower is They May be able to answer this question.

Where is the only Martello Tower in Australia ?


Question 1.Was answered by 


Question 2. Answer is Sailors Guide sired the mare Navy Band who was the dam of Cortan who won 28 races and became a leading sire.Cortan inducted into Hall Of Fame same year as jockeys Bill Hartack who Had a short period in Hong Kong,and Eddie Maple.

If anyone wants to see the full race I have just seen that race on YouTube.

Scobie Breasley is also riding in the race.

Vincent O’Brien has Ballymoss  in the race.Scobie riding him.

Willie Shoemaker is also riding.

The margin was 3 1/2 lengths.

Type in Sailors Guide Washington International.

You got him Todman.Great stuff.

This Washington International race you heard Todman was a walk up start.One horse appeared to be facing the wrong way and got left behind.

Tudor Era won by six lengths but lost the race.If you interfered with another horse you lost the race.I think they needed the Sheriff to sort that one.

We will wait to see if someone can come up with the second answer.

the horse was Sailors Guide - I listened to him win the Washington DC race live on our wireless - don't know other answers

well the horse was Sailor's Guide but I have no idea re other questions - I remember listening, live on our wireless, to his win (on protest) in the Washington race 

Can someone name the horse who Won the Sydney Cup and other top class races and left these shores to race successfully in the U.S.

He sired a mare who was the dam of a very nice chap who won 28 races and became a very successful sire.

1. Name the horse who left these shores.

2. Name the horse who won 28 races and became a successful sire.

It’s easy when you know the answer..Tar.

Yes King every horse has a story.

Looking at Wakefuls pedigree is fascinating.

Juliet dam of Chrysolite is on both sides of Wakeful’s pedigree.

lOne of her daughters Sylvia won the Oaks and then became the mother of Martini Henry(Derby&Melborne Cup)and Champion sire Goldsbrough.

You could spend hours looking through her bloodlines.

Interesting, had this horse not survived the ship wreck ther would not have ever been a WAKEFUL


Whilst Redwood - the other horse to survive - was never quite the same after the catastrophe, The Chrysolite Colt was by no means licked yet.

Fully recovered and now fittingly known as Robinson Crusoe, the miracle three-year-old went on to become one of the finest racehorses in the country.

'The shipwreck horse' claimed six stakes races in 1877 alone (for a career total of ten) and would establish an influential legacy in the breeding barn, with superstar racemare Wakeful amongst his descendants.

Wakeful would have to be up there as one of the greatest mares bred on this country.

Would any of you clever people out there know where Wakeful is buried.

Should have been Regal Star 1929 NOT Regal Star 1029, sorry about that

Wakeful's grandaughter Eumilia 1924 produced two Stakes Winners:

geld, King's Knave 1927 who won the 1934 ARC Hcp PR

geld. Tapestry 1930 won 1936 Newcastle Cup PR

Another grandaughter Regal Fleur 1922 also produced two stakes winners:

Stallion, Regal Light 1943 who won 1949 AJC Winter Stakes PR

geld. Regal Star 1029 won 1935 Tatt's Qld Tattersall's Cup PR and the 1935 QTC Exhibition Hcp PR

More to follow

You are a very intelligent sorta gal Gladys.I’m hoping you can help us find some category 1 horses.

It is not easy,you can tell by my pic to see how much I have aged trying to find same.

King has set a very fast pace and I’m really struggling.

Every horse has a story Gladys and I hope one day you might whisper in my ear what yours is. She 


Are you another of poor Gary's aliases Branded.

Your description of the srroundings, is that the mental institution in which you and Gary's other personalities such as King are presently being held involuntarily?

Hopefully Chakvetadze can help keep the line going.

Should be nice mares through Lord Dudley.

Sorry Branded but I dont think Gladys will be accepting your offer of a dance as I am sure that she will find any form of dancing  still very difficult after having had her [email protected]% pulled down and very much still twised around her ankles, 

Or put more simply I dare say that she still has her knickers in a knot after having her [email protected] pulled down by her KING.

We all know that she gave up in the end after succumbing to relentless intellectual bashing time and time again from her doninant KING.


Branded I have found a number of direct female Stakes Winning descendants of the great mare Wakeful.

And no Gladys you wont find them on Google dopey.

I will publish same when I get a little more free time.

Welcome to the big dance Gladys.I have just had the floors polished,I hope you like them.There’s coffee and biscuits on the table,just help yourself.Theres a telephone on the wall if you would like a wager with the Bookmaker.Make yourself comfortable and enjoy your stay.I hope you can participate in our exploits.

This is how you end up when what is left of your senses totally collapses under the strain of not being able to name one decent horse that Winx beat.

You spend your waking hours pounding away on Google trying to impress people with your perspective on subjects of which you hold no knowledge save what you have found on some other bore's ramblings.


Prince Cortauld. ??

Tried tracing mares that go back to Wakeful but very hard as I’m using my phone.I’m in Sydney at present my puter back in bush.

Whiskey Lover 1977(Whiskey Road xCher Amour) traces to Wakeful.Through him there should be some nice mares around.Wakeful Blood back a long way but be interesting to see any horses racing today that have her in their bloodlines.I’m going to bed !!!!


You are right, looks like I clicked on Wakeful GB instead of Wakeful Aus, sorry about that.

I stand corrected, this from Aust Studbook

Wakeful (AUS) 1896

 Aust.Id.: 532478    bay mare    Date of Birth: 00/00/1896 

 2 stakeswinners & 7 stakeswins  

 by Trenton (NZ) 1881  from Insomnia (AUS) 1889         
Stakes Winning Progeny
Winner    Year    Race Name That Year    Status

Blairgour (AUS) 1907    

1910    VATC Memsie Stakes    Pr
1911    VATC Oakleigh Plate    Pr
1911    VATC Futurity Stakes    Pr

Night Watch (AUS) 1913    

1919    WmtnRc Peace Cup    Pr
1919    VRC October Stakes    Pr
1919    VATC Caulfield Stakes    Pr
1918    VRC Melbourne Cup    P

I think Gothic should be category one King.

You are very knowledgeable King but

You might revisit Wakeful’s kids.


Well done to both Todman & Branded with Aqanita & Ajax albeit they both only just qualified (IMO) with wins in 12f elite staying races. 

I was hoping for ones with a longer than 12f staying record in the same year but of course it is widely accepted that 12f & beyond is in fact a staying test.

Therefore if 12f is acceptable then we can also include Amounis who in 1930, won 7f Futurity, 10f VRC Essendon Stakes & the 12f Caulfield Cup.

Branded re your:

"Wakeful would fit the second category."


What a horse she must have been.

So many top class wins including a 24f (approx 4800 m) WFA VRC Queens Plate.

Is it any wonder they named a good race after her.

Unfortunately she did not prove to be much of a broodmare as she only produced the one Stakes winner in St Aldegonde who won the GB Park Hill Stakes PR 14f.

However it is interesting to note as a bit of trivia that Wakeful is the 4th dam of a horse named Osculum who won the 1936 Grafton Cup

Unfortunately many of these great bloodlines have a habit of simply disappearing over time.

Are there any other category ones worthy of mention?

Ajax if Queen Elizabeth is considered an elite staying race.





I will agree on both of the category 2s.


Sorry I can'tagree with you on Taj Rossi as in 1973 he won:

Ascotvale Stakes 1200m only against other 3yos. Further to this this race was aonly a Principal race at the time which eventually became a G2 and it took 33years for it to gain G1 status as a G1 race after Taj rossi's win. (hardly what I would call an elite sprint race eg, Lightning, Oakleigh Plate or newmarket Hcp)

Yes he did win an elite middle distance race in 1973 when winning the Cox Plate.

But as fror winning an elite staying event in 1973 I hardly think that a 2500m VRC Derby only against other 3yos would qualify.

The VRC Derby is not regarded highly by most (except Victorians) as an elite staying event, far too many duds have won this race.

Saintly in 1996 almost qualifies as a category one as he won an Expressway Stakes, Cox Plate & Melb Cup

As does Makybe Diva nearly qualify as a category one in 2005 as she won a Memsie Stakes, Cox Plate & Melb Cup.

And what about poor old Gunsynd, so close but no Cigar in 1972 as he won a Futurity, Cox Plate, a 2500m VRC QE Stakes and then a good 3rd in the Melb Cup.

Does this qualify him as a category one?

Come on Branded there must be other category ones in the records, dont give up just yet!

My final answer is Taj Rossi

Malua fits.

Heroic fits second category.

Wakeful would fit the second category.

Yes, Malua, what an amazing horse he must have been!

He won an Oakleigh plate, Newmarket Hcp, what is now the Mackinnon Stakes, an Adelaide Cup & a Melbourne Cup all in the same year (as well as other top class races)

But I think you may find this a little harder Branded.

Can anyone come up with a horse any horse that had the ability to win even just one of each of the following:

An elite sprint, an elite middle distance race and an elite staying event all in the one calendar year?


For that matter a horse any horse that had the ability to win even just one elite sprint, one elite middle distance race and one elite staying event even if allowed to be spread over multiple years?

Well done King.

You may be correct regarding the hoop.

Bobby Lewis was reported as leaving at that time,but that doesn’t mean he rode The Grafter in England.




I will return serve with this one, also easy I think?

They say a CHAMPION can win at all distances but as we know many supposed CHAMPIONS only perform well in a narrow distance band (Black Caviar, and to a lesser degree WINX) where as a horse like Kingston Town performed well over nearly all distance ranges.

There is one horse which comes to mind that won two elite sprint races, an elite middle distance race and two elite staying races all in the same calendar year (there may be others but I doubt it)

Q1. Who was the horse?

Q2. What year was it?


1st and 2nd in the Melbourne Cup.

1897 Gaullas beat his brother The Grafter into 2nd in the MC

The next year the 2nd horse did what ........

1898 The Grafter won the MC

Name the trainer and jockey who took him......

Trainer was Brewer, was the jockey M Cannon???

The two horses ran 1st and second in the same cup.

Name the two brothers.....

What did the one who ran second accomplish the next year in the same race......

Name the trainer and jockey who took him  to England.....

Talkback Forum

Racing And Sports offers our users the chance to get involved with spirited discussion about major racing issues on your Talkback Forum. They may include chatter about racing matters, issues relating to the website, sporting conversation, betting matters and more. Please be aware that Racing And Sports now moderates Talkback to ensure posting guidelines are adhered to. The views expressed on Talkback are those of the writer and not necessarily those of Racing And Sports. You must be a registered user to write postings or send messages to other users.

Latest Posts